Though it could still retain a sense of intimacy — the intimacy of the Christian with Christ or God it connoted in the Authorized Version — that it once held in general use, it is more likely being used to connote the inferior status of the person addressing God.
Its tenacity and the specific uses for which it has survived suggests that some English speakers may have a lingering desire for more subtle variations in forms of pronomial address, particularly as a means of expressing some of the stronger emotions of love, respect, and intimacy.
Works Consulted. Abrams, M. New York: W. Badgley, Don. Birch, Barbara M. Blake, Norman. Norman Blake. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, Bristow, Ted. Denison, David. Suzanne Romaine. Graveson, Caroline C.. London: The Bennisdale Press, Lass, Roger. Roger Lass. Oxford English Dictionary.
But Fox was arguing: No, in fact, each person is equally singular, regardless of rank. So unless thou art actually addressing a crowd, use the singular pronoun, and don't try to flatter anyone into thinking that his life is worth two of thy own by using the plural form when talking to him and hoping to get double price for what thou art selling.
The problem modern Friends face is that the actual meaning of "you" and "thee" has been switched in popular culture — those who are not familiar with plain speech think "Thou" is formal, and "You" is informal. So it's easier to use the common vernacular, unless you want to include and grammar and history lesson in every conversation…. Heather Rose Jones has a good point that "plain speech" like plain dress has become the very sort of affectation that Quakers originally sought to avoid.
The last person I knew personally who used plain speech unaffectedly nevertheless used it to effect. He was an Elder who would signal a shift in conversation towards Quaker affairs by using "thee".
So he might say, "I saw you in town yesterday" but "we could use thee on the Finance committee". My grandfather also sometimes used plain speech, but only with small children and dogs. He used nominal thee, not thou — but also used the third person verb, as in "thee's a good girl".
I see that in some but not all of the examples in this thread. Ann: "As I understand it, using the plural "you" as a formal address to a singular person is precisely the honorific Fox is arguing against. This makes sense. According to M-W Unabridged," 'you,' was " used from Old English times to the 13th or 14th century only as a plural pronoun of the second person. Joyce, it's not using "have" with "thou". It's using "dost" with "thou".
But I think using "do" to form questions like that didn't appear until after "thou" was pretty much dead, so "Dost thou have" sounds like an error for "Hast thou".
KCinDC: That's probably true as regards mainstream usage; but Quaker simple speech isn't meant to be a reconstruction of a historic form of English. Familiarity with the bible doesn't necessarily mean you can get its grammar right. Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, made lots of mistakes with archaisms in the Book of Mormon.
He was certainly very familiar with the King James version but didn't 'feel' the archaisms well enough to reproduce them grammatically. As I mentioned, in Lancashire dialect "thou" was pronounced "tha": I should add that "thee" was "thi". Wikipedia says that by the 17c "thou" was a term of contempt "I thou thee, thou traitor! The discrepency concerning Penn's birthday might perhaps be because October 24, in the newfangled Gregorian calendar fell on the day called October 14 in the unreformed Julian calendar still in use in England.
It certainly would have been entertaining if Richard Nixon's speeches had been given in plain speech. During the French revolution, people were supposed to address each other as "Citoyen ne " and "tu". In novels written in the decades after the revolutionary period and dealing with the period , people associated with the revolutionary government use this with everyone, but those who disagree or need to make themselves inconspicuous continue the traditional habits when speaking privately, even though they conform to the new rule in public not doing so could be a matter of life and death.
Most people resumed their old habits of address after the political situation had stabilized. October 26, am. Thanks, KCinDC, that didn't occur to me at all! But using do-forms in English is older than Shakespeare, though the old Saxon way of forming a question didn't really become the exception for some time. I don't think it was necessarily a term of contempt, but would have been perceived as one of disrespect.
It could certainly be said in a contemptuous manner as in your quotation , but that was clearly not the Quakers' usual intent.
That said, the Quakers were subjected to enough discrimination and harrassment that their unwelcome familiarity might have been willingly heard as contempt in the ears of the outside world. A modern author who uses the second person singular is Tolkien: here's a brief analysis of just how he uses it in various places in The Lord of the Rings.
As he himself says, it has at least four functions, which may be mingled in specific instances: intimacy "I have wished thee joy ever since first I saw thee. Or he will not slay thee in thy turn" , ceremonious language "That office is not ended, and it shall be thine and thy heirs' as long as my line shall last. Do now thy office!
There is also the song about the old troll, which contains a conversation between dialect-speakers who address each other in the singular the only such instance , and also makes use of ax for ask , the subject of the next LL post.
Here are two verses that illustrate both points:. But what be bones that lie in a hole? Thy nuncle was dead as a lump o' lead, Afore I found his shinbone.
He can spare a share for a poor old troll, For he don't need his shinbone. Said Tom: "I don't see why the likes o' thee Without axin' leave should go makin' free With the shank or the shin o' my father's kin; So hand the old bone over!
Though dead he be, it belongs to he; So hand the old bone over! There is also a sly jest on trover , which appears to be just part of the rhyming nonsense words used in the "bob" of each stanza, but is actually the common-law term for the wrongful conversion to one's own use of another's personal property, quite suitable to the case of a bone abstracted from a grave by a troll!
Bloix and h. The textbook that we used no chance of my remembering anything about its title or author indicated that most members of the society in which the Quakers developed regarded "thou" in a similar light to the French "tu", and thus offensive to those who perceived themselves to be socially equal to or better than their interlocutors; in particular quoting one gentleman who had been addressed as "thou" by a Quaker in the street as responding indignantly: "Do you 'thou' me, dog?
An thou thou'st me, I'll thou thy teeth down thy throat! October 26, pm. Bloix, hs gudnason, Robert Coren. I was talking with my brother about this he's a linguist, but not a historical linguist , and he suggested that Quaker insistence on "thou" hastened its extinction in the general populace, because Quakers were so stigmatized in many areas and no one wanted to be mistaken for one. In England, Quakers couldn't hold public office and were often imprisoned or tortured.
In the Puritan colonies, Quakers could be branded on the forehead and hanged or exiled. You could see why other people would want to distance themselves, but I'm not sure how you could test whether avoidance of Quaker-like language significantly sped up the loss of "thou. Alex: I suspect the sacred nature of 'thee' and 'thou' may have contributed to the demise. By reserving this for sacred speech and song , it helps distinguish the sacred from the mundane.
As an example. An interesting example of the sacralisation of 'thou' is the Evening Hymn 'Glory to thee, my God, this night' , written by Bishop Thomas Ken in the late 17th Century. However, one verse is addressed to the guardian angel, and begins ' You, my blest guardian, while I sleep'. It seems Ken associated 'thou' so specifically with God that he did not think it suitable even for angels.
Or perhaps, it occurs to me, the point is to make clear that this verse is not addressed to God, which might not be clear otherwise. But in any case 'you' for an angel is not seen as problematic. William Penn lived during the time that the Julian calendar was in use often called the "Old Style" calendar today. He was born on Eighth Month 14, However, at the time that England switched to the Gregorian calendar, ten days were added and New Years Day was shifted , so his re-calculated birthday using the "New Style" is Tenth Month 24, The difference between the Old Style and New Style calendars has increased since The use of second person singular pronouns has been a source of some interesting scholarly studies.
In general, it appears that Friends ministers used 'thou' for the nominative pretty consistently until around , as evidenced by the many printed journals. The plain dressing Friends in England continue to use 'thou' today. In the USA, the most traditional Quakers the Ohio Friends mostly prefer the KJV and use 'thou' when quoting scripture but otherwise use 'thee' for nominative and objective.
Other second person singular-related pronouns have suffered a similar fate. Also the use of 'ye' as the second person plural has mostly disappeared among Ohio Friends except when quoting scripture. Ironically, the opposite is the case. Those who have joined in recent decades are far more likely to use plain speech than those from the old Quaker families who have used it all along. As I stated above, the most traditional Quakers usually prefer the KJV and are familiar with its use of pronouns.
They sometimes use the -eth ending for verbs and other elements of 17th century English that are found in the KJV. Yusuf Ali uses King James English. An example in the "Fatiha' the opening Sura says, "Thee we do worship. I think this was a very clever way to translate the classical Arabic of the Qur'an: Sacred Arabic in the source language to sacred English in the target language.
October 27, am. October 28, am. While they don't necessarily include the examples you cite here, they do contain page images of many early Quaker and anti-Quaker writings. October 30, pm. Dear Friends, A family member forwarded me the link to your original article on the use of Plain Speech by Quakers, and I have read both it and the comments that follow with great interest.
As someone who is called a "grammar Nazi" with some regularity I will never be convinced that "they" is a singular pronoun , I have enormous respect for the work you do. I hope, therefore, that my comments will be taken as they are intended: to help with your investigations, not to reprove.
Several days ago, Mark F. May I suggest that you are not looking in the right places? My family does, and I know many others who do, as well. In fact, one friend also a Friend to whom I forwarded the link responded, "interesting but not really in line with my experience with the older members of my family or meeting.
Usage promoted everyone. Their plain language, however, gradually underwent a change of its own. This was the speech I heard from many Westtown faculty members and other Philadelphia-area Friends when I first encountered them in Many 20 th -century Quakers who still used the plain language switched more or less automatically in and out of Standard English, depending on whom they were addressing.
Some did not. The resulting interactions could be curious. Judy Matchett and I spent the summer of on the Navaho Reservation with our beloved older friends the Bailys. Bert Baily used the plain language only with others who used it also, but Helen Baily used the plain language consistently with everyone.
However baffling they may have found this, the Navahos, Hopis, and Zunis with whom we were dealing quickly appreciated her warm sincerity, and after several days of exposure to her pronouns, began using them — in addition to the three or more languages they already spoke, including their native languages, Spanish, and English.
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